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galileo unchained for those who have no use for faith search main menu skip to primary content skip to secondary content home about all posts glossary the book “cross examined” review by dr. robert price post navigation ← older posts we’ve moved! posted on august 7, 2012 by bob seidensticker reply it’s been a great first year for galileo unchained, but it’s time for a move. this blog is moving to patheos, one of the largest religion sites on the internet. it has portals featuring material on lots of other religions, including over 100 blogs, such as hemant mehta’s “friendly atheist” and greg epstein’s “good without god.” i invite you to continue following the blog at the new site and with a new name: cross examined. all the old content will remain here, but new posts will be only at the new site: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ if you’ve signed up for email notification, there are two ways to do that at patheos. you can sign up for notification of all patheos atheist blogs (right side, top) or just cross examined (right side, scroll down a couple of pages). please join me at the new site ! no matter where you go … there you are — buckaroo banzai share this: tweet email print more share on tumblr like this: like loading... posted in atheism | tagged new location , patheos | leave a reply who would die for a lie? posted on august 6, 2012 by bob seidensticker 2 almost all of the original apostles that surrounded jesus died martyr’s deaths. if they knew that he was just a regular guy and that the resurrection story was fiction, why would they go to their deaths supporting it? lee strobel said that though people may die defending their beliefs, “people will not die for their religious beliefs if they know that their religious beliefs are false.” while people have died for lies—the 9/11 hijackers, for example, or the heaven’s gate cult—they didn’t know it was a lie. that the apostles were in a position to know and still died defending it is strong evidence that the jesus story is accurate. or, at least this is the story christians tell themselves. there are several issue here, but let’s focus first on the big one: how do we know how the apostles died? since their dying as martyrs is key to this apologetic, you’d think that this was well established in history. but as we’ve seen (“ is mark an eyewitness account? ”), sometimes christian historical claims have a very weak pedigree. our one-stop shopping source for this question is historian hippolytus of rome (170–235) in his “ on the twelve apostles .” at best, this is an early second century work written close to 150 years after the facts it claims to document. at worst, it was written even later by an unknown author (called “pseudo-hippolytus” by historians) and deliberately or inadvertently compiled with the writings of hippolytus. here’s the summary: 4 apostles were crucified: andrew, bartholomew, peter, and philip (the last three upside down). 3 were killed in some other way: james the son of alpheus was stoned, james the son of zebedee was killed with a sword (presumably decapitated), and thomas was killed by spear. 5 died natural deaths: john, matthew, matthias (the new twelfth disciple added after judas left the group), simon the zealot, and judas the son of james (thaddeus). another popular source for this information is john foxe’s book of martyrs , first published in 1563 and in many later editions. its late age, 1500 years after the events, is enough to disqualify it since we have the earlier account, but its popularity makes it an important source. to a large extent foxe was simply a mouthpiece for the anti-catholic sentiment in england at the time, and many sources dismiss its accuracy ( wikipedia , 1911 britannica , catholic encyclopedia ). foxe largely agrees with hippolytus on the deaths of the apostles except for the ones that hippolytus says died natural deaths, giving that fate only to john. he says that matthew was “slain with a halberd” in ethiopia, matthias was stoned in jerusalem and beheaded, simon the zealot was crucified in britain, and judas the son of james was crucified in what is now eastern turkey. james the son of zebedee seems to have the oldest martyrdom story. hippolytus probably got his account from acts 12:2, written in the latter half of the first century, which says that herod agrippa (grandson of herod the great) killed him “with the sword.” for most of the other apostles, however, contradictory stories cloud the issue. for example, bartholomew’s death is documented in a number of contradictory ways. one account says that he was beaten and then drowned. the martyrdom of bartholomew (c. 500) says that he was beaten and then beheaded. the most popular , perhaps because it’s the most gruesome, is that he was skinned alive and then crucified (or perhaps beheaded). various sources add to the story of matthias. he was crucified in ethiopia. or he was blinded by cannibals but rescued by andrew. or he died a natural death in georgia on the coast of the black sea. simon the zealot might have been sawn in half in persia. or crucified in samaria. or martyred in georgia. add to this: the many additional contradictory stories about other apostles not included in this brief list, the decades-long period of oral history from event to writing, and the time span, usually centuries-long, between the original manuscripts documenting the martyrdom stories and our oldest copies that make those copies suspect. what can we conclude given this evidential house of cards? only that “most apostles were martyred for their faith” is historically almost indefensible. and it’s not just that the claim for any particular martyrdom story is flimsy; it’s that we can be certain that many of them are false because they contradict each other. let’s pause for a moment to savor this lesson. “tradition holds that” or “the church tells us that” is never enough—be sure to look behind the curtain to see what evidence actually supports a historic claim. “who would die for a lie?” i dunno—first establish that someone died at all. martyrdom has always been a proof of the intensity, never of the correctness, of a belief. — arthur schnitzler (1862–1931) photo credit: wikimedia related links: “would someone die for what they knew was a lie?” iron chariots wiki . “‘die for a lie’ won’t fly” debunking christianity , 5/11/06. robert m. price, “ would the apostles die for a lie? ” “what happened to the 12 disciples of jesus?” icthus.com . lee strobel, “would someone die for a lie?” youtube , 3/16/07. john foxe, book of martyrs full text , project gutenberg. share this: tweet email print more share on tumblr like this: like loading... posted in christianity , history | tagged andrew , apostle , bartholomew , foxe's book of martyrs , hippolytus of rome , john , judas , lee strobel , martyr , matthew , matthias , peter , phillip , robert m. price , simon the zealot | 2 replies god’s diminishing power posted on august 4, 2012 by bob seidensticker 8 in the beginning … god walked in the garden of eden like an ordinary supernatural joe. he dropped by abraham’s for a cup of coffee and a chat. he didn’t know what was up in sodom and gomorrah and had to send out angelic scouts for reconnaissance: “the outcry against sodom and gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that i will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me” (gen. 18:20–21). but, like stalin gradually collecting titles, god has now become omniscient and omnipotent. he’s gone from needing six days to shape a world from play-doh and sprinkle tiny stars in the dome of heaven to creating 100 billion galaxies, each with 100 billion stars. that’s 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 kg of universe. and yet, oddly, his biblical demonstrations of power faded with time. from creating the universe, he’s weakened such that appearing in a grilled cheese sandwich is about as much as he can

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Domain Name: GALILEOUNCHAINED.COM
Registry Domain ID: 1674667064_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN
Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.wildwestdomains.com
Registrar URL: http://www.wildwestdomains.com
Updated Date: 2018-08-01T08:52:00Z
Creation Date: 2011-08-31T06:30:28Z
Registry Expiry Date: 2019-08-31T06:30:28Z
Registrar: Wild West Domains, LLC
Registrar IANA ID: 440
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Name Server: NS1.WORDPRESS.COM
Name Server: NS2.WORDPRESS.COM
DNSSEC: unsigned
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  REGISTRAR Wild West Domains, LLC

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